Dan Szuc manages to turn our latest Ask The UXperts session on its head by asking US the questions.
He got us thinking and talking in what turned out to be one of the most inspirational session yet. If you missed it, check out the transcript (and related reading list) here…
Make Meaningful Work – From Sleepwalking to Sparkle isn’t your average Ask the UXperts kind of title, but then nothing is ever particularly normal when it comes to Dan Szuc. He grabs life with both hands, gives it a shake, and hands it back all shiny and new. It’s an inspiring thing to be watch.
Dan didn’t let us down today.
Rather than our usual Q&A format, he asked us the questions and they weren’t easy ones.
The session was designed to get us thinking about the changes that we can make in our own work environments (and within our own selves) to ensure that we are getting (and giving) the most value possible.
Dan wrapped up with an impressive reading list, which I’ve curated here for your learning pleasure.
If you didn’t make it because you didn’t know about it, make sure you join our community to get updates of upcoming sessions. If you’re interested in seeing what we discussed, or you want to revisit your own questions, here is a full transcript of the chat.
Transcript:
hawk
2016-08-03 01:30
First up, a huge thanks to @dszuc for making time for us. This is the second time Dan has been a special guest UXpert and we’re really grateful.
And the risk was that we were being sucked slowly into our own silo
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:40
Without the necessary capabilities to look at the problem holistically
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:40
So what to do?
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:40
It also struck me that UX, for lack of a better term, was one vehicle for our practice as made up of many skills
jobot
2016-08-03 01:40
has joined #ask-dan-szuc
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:40
But it seemed like it was not enough as an intention
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:41
See Jared Spool’s – design is the rendering of intent
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:41
So what was our intention if not UX?
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:41
So between 2012 and today
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:41
we have been studying projects
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:41
our own and stories from others
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:41
to get clarity on what is happening at work?
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:42
This lead us to a path of sorts
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:42
that says
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:42
If people prefer to work on projects that have a value for people
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:42
then what does that mean?
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:42
what we discovered was that people in projects were, for the most part, sleepwalking
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:42
they were/are functionally doing their work
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:43
but not necessarily gaining that sense of purposeful clarity
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:43
so if there is a % if people sleepwalking
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:43
what could be the opposite state?
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:43
well @jobot who just joined, my wife and partner Josephine Wong
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:43
said, what if, we simply put sparkle into people,
hawk
2016-08-03 01:44
Welcome Jo :slightly_smiling_face:
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:44
so perhaps less about changing or transforming the system
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:44
just working with people then projects
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:44
what would that look like
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:44
how can we get from sleepwalking to sparkle?
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:44
the problem with that
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:44
is that its a nice path of sorts
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:44
but it was not necessarily practical to digest
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:45
so over this Xmas break
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:45
from 2015 to 2016
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:45
we thought, what if
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:45
we could turn that into a question
marc
2016-08-03 01:45
has joined #ask-dan-szuc
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:45
something thats plain and simple to understand
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:45
something that no specific practice owns
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:45
one where we dont try and be the person at the summit claiming ownership
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:45
what could that be?
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:46
Well it only took 5 years
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:46
but we arrived at this
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:46
how can we
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:46
make
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:46
meaningful
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:46
work?
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:46
make meaningful work
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:46
and to conclude
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:46
this is liberating in that
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:46
it means
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:46
that we can invite so many disciplines to help us answer it
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:47
thats not restricted to any one discipline
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:47
as there is lots we can learn from others in helping us answer the question
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:47
finally
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:47
it made me realise
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:47
that this is about understanding people
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:48
and in reference to being respectful to context and the stories people can share in their contexts
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:48
and what we can learn from that
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:48
so ….
hawk
2016-08-03 01:48
QUESTIONS!
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:48
Yes
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:48
lets start with some reflections
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:48
then I have some questions for the group
lukcha
2016-08-03 01:49
Love it – questions for us!
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:49
thanks for listening patiently folks
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:49
ok
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:49
lets start with frustrations
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:49
frustrations as an indicators of sleepwalking
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:49
what frustrates you about your project work today
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:49
we use projects as the unit of analysis
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:50
but we understand projects can blend into work in general
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:50
what frustrations do you have?
hawk
2016-08-03 01:50
bottlenecks while others make decisions
paddyg
2016-08-03 01:50
Ownership of direction
lukcha
2016-08-03 01:50
The emphasis on project speed
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:50
ok
vernon
2016-08-03 01:50
No definition of project success or fail.
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:50
ok
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:50
good
marc
2016-08-03 01:50
to what extent do you think this is about choosing your customers, the projects you work on, to help define the “meaning”?
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:50
lets keep it going
kmyers
2016-08-03 01:51
Not being given the time to appropriately solution design, dev starting work while solution is still in flux, then being told we can’t implement changes because they have already started down one path
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:51
thanks @marc
nathannirens
2016-08-03 01:51
Frustration – being asked to design something when the content is still being defined
lukcha
2016-08-03 01:51
Busywork vs creating valuable things
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:51
yes
crystal
2016-08-03 01:51
People losing focus on the big picture, lost in tiny details
marc
2016-08-03 01:51
is meaning to be found in the type of work, or is it more about ensuring ALL work can have meaning?
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:52
all good
kmyers
2016-08-03 01:52
Lack of understanding of contributions UX can make by BAs, PMs and company leadership. UX work being regarded as making it pretty, adding bells and whistles.
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:52
and this is consistent with what we have heard before
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:52
If I may, lets talk about speed
danvineyard.com
2016-08-03 01:53
how can we make UX a business critical part of the product?
Consider this thought from @crystal – “People losing focus on the big picture, lost in tiny details”
lukcha
2016-08-03 01:54
We stop listening to ourselves and others when we get overstressed
lukcha
2016-08-03 01:54
yeah
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:54
Consider this from @lukcha – “Busywork vs creating valuable things”
paddyg
2016-08-03 01:55
David whyte :ok_hand:
thistristan
2016-08-03 01:55
has joined #ask-dan-szuc
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:55
Consider this from @kmyers – “Not being given the time to appropriately solution design”
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:55
So lets break this down some more
nathannirens
2016-08-03 01:55
UX integration from project conception
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:55
Lets talk about why make meaningful work
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:56
Make – we wanted an alternative to design
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:56
Education about design is certainly increasing
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:56
As people see it more than just
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:57
“adding bells and whistles” from @kmyers
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:57
So we wanted something more plain
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:57
Make infers design
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:57
But we did not want it to look and feel like a design led discussion
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:57
Then
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:57
We have meaning
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:57
What other terms could we use for meaning?
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:57
This is a question for the group
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:58
What doe meaning mean for you?
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:58
Stay with me :slightly_smiling_face:
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:58
What does it infer for our work?
lukcha
2016-08-03 01:58
Relevance
davidbaird
2016-08-03 01:58
Meaning means purpose and resolve
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:58
Yes!
chels
2016-08-03 01:58
connection to a bigger purpose / strategy
crystal
2016-08-03 01:58
Positive/beneficial impact
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:58
Yes!
chels
2016-08-03 01:58
direct correlation to a positve(?) outcome
lukcha
2016-08-03 01:58
Understanding
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:58
Yes!
thistristan
2016-08-03 01:58
Organizing concern
chels
2016-08-03 01:58
tangible
desmond132518
2016-08-03 01:59
it helps solve sth / provide value to someone
lukcha
2016-08-03 01:59
Expression
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:59
Yes!
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:59
Love it!
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:59
Any more?
davidbaird
2016-08-03 01:59
A solution, but not neccessarily the only solution
crystal
2016-08-03 01:59
Fulfilling
snapperwolf
2016-08-03 01:59
value
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:59
Yes!
dszuc
2016-08-03 01:59
hi @snapperwolf
vernon
2016-08-03 01:59
Meaningful: valueable to both users and business in reaching goals.
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:00
all good and all true
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:00
so background
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:00
in asking the question
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:00
how can we make meaningful work
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:00
we are opening this up in 2017 for more people to answer this for us
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:00
this means
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:00
it assumes we need some routines at play
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:01
to help give us a chance of getting to a sense of meaning
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:01
Meaning for me and @jobot relates to core value
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:01
For the business and certainly for the product
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:01
what is the core value you are providing that
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:01
solves a problem
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:01
and
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:01
where that problem maps to a real human need to be solved
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:02
it also assumes
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:02
if people are working on real problems to be solved
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:02
it means that people
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:02
on projects
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:02
potentially are more connected to that sense of work
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:02
For myself
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:03
I have that for the most part for our own company
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:03
I lost my way in 2012 which started this relearning to discover make meaningful work
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:03
but
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:03
in most projects we work on
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:03
that meaning
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:03
is not present
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:03
its simply not there
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:03
yes
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:03
people are doing work
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:03
some of it is good work
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:04
but when we dig into the core value
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:04
the meaning of what we are working on
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:04
and how this maps to solving a real human problem
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:04
its often not there
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:04
the question then becomes
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:04
why?
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:04
And have you all felt this before on projects?
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:04
Delivery of work
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:05
But not entirely clear why?
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:05
Thoughts?
davidbaird
2016-08-03 02:05
for me, yes…and Im a point in my UX project/Design project where Its neccessarry to engage with real users again to get insights into users pain points
Frederick Winslow Taylor was repulsed by waste and with a stopwatch and a clipboard he set about inventing a productivity revolution. Using modular parts in a division of labor made it possible for workers to specialize, and specialists were then quicker to master competencies to produce widgets at scale.
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:09
Today, silos in large organisations are a logical extension of specialization, almost without noticing, because it’s baked into our idea of what we think work is. Problems occur when we find ourselves among disparate cohorts of specialists from our respective silos who increasingly feel the need to agree to disagree. Stalemates obstruct progress, and the value of our organizations consequently erodes.
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:09
So consider this
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:09
Lets use @lukcha ‘s comment as a spring board
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:09
“Encouraging vulnerability in ideas and expression and creating a safe and trusting space to think.”
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:09
Which I love BTW
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:10
If a future instance of work
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:10
to help answer make meaningful work
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:10
infers smaller teams
chris
2016-08-03 02:10
has joined #ask-dan-szuc
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:10
cross disciplinary ways of working
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:10
As I experienced in theatre training and production
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:10
Less on projects
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:10
This means
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:10
We do need to consider
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:11
What we need to have in place
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:11
for meaningful work to happen
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:11
Lets call this
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:11
“Staging”
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:11
What needs to happen in Staging
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:11
for us to reach meaningful
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:11
Trust
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:11
As shared by @lukcha
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:11
Is critical in this
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:11
“Encouraging vulnerability in ideas and expression and creating a safe and trusting space to think.”
The feeling of being the best or having all of the answers/information can prevent people from looking outside of themselves or teams for solutions and more information. Lack of humility kills curiosity.
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:21
this implies that we are always learning from the people we design for and with
lukcha
2016-08-03 02:21
Shared, holistic, longer term visions. Perhaps Customer journey maps?
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:21
something thats often missing in work as part of make meaningful work
to teach us about the importance of narrative in helping to answer
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:22
make meaningful work
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:22
who could we learn from?
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:23
as we seek inspiration from outside the realms of digital and design and UX etc
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:23
So …
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:23
Last reflections from the group
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:23
And then will leave you with some thoughts
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:23
And a call to action
davidbaird
2016-08-03 02:23
those who interact with the industry we are designing for…like Contextual inquiry, associated participants
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:24
nice @davidbaird
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:24
thank you
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:24
any other final reflections
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:24
before I wrap up?
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:24
And before I hand back to @hawk
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:24
ok …
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:24
so consider this
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:24
Intentional Awareness
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:24
What if
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:24
We accepted in part
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:25
That work places today
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:25
Have been influenced and structured by some older thinking
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:25
Legacy exists
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:25
We should be mindful of this
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:25
And reject it if needed by sharing our frustrations
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:25
To further define the problem of work
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:25
All good
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:25
So …
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:25
Intentional Awareness
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:26
Consider this
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:26
Given the frictions silos can create, another challenge in large organizations is the ability to form smaller, nimble project teams who share a common sense of purpose. It’s the ability of such teams to come together and intentionally create something great that enables organizations to achieve stellar results with the help of routines that guide them, not only in becoming better at working well together, but also hopefully in getting more enjoyment out of their work. Over time, such teams get better and better at both their individual roles and their ability to work effectively together.
crystal
2016-08-03 02:26
I had a realization the other day that interdisciplinary is far reaching and UXers could even learn from disciplines like interior design.
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:26
Yes! @crystal and many more
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:26
Consider this:
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:26
Practically as a guide to help answer
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:26
how can we make meaningful work
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:26
We have observed that teams rarely practice routines with any rigor and typically fail to think about them during project planning or when bringing together a project team. Most of the time, project team members get stuck in an implementation routine that leaves them little time or attention for the other routines.
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:27
Consider “staging”
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:27
How we can setup a project, people and routines for it to succeed
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:27
as a way to get to make meaningful work
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:27
And if we are to sparkle and not be sleepwalking
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:27
Consider this:
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:27
What if I… Rather than waiting for a top down response from a CEO or the head of HR, we suggest starting with changes from within ourselves. Changes that affect our personal habits, routines and mental models. Changes that ripple outward gently, if not effortlessly, with every conversation available on a project in front of us today.
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:28
What if:
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:28
I …
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:28
Possess all the social permission I need to change my personal habits?
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:28
Spend an hour of everyday examining the potential for significance of this project?
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:28
Begin listening to and imploring others for their motives, rather than their threats?
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:28
Replace ‘what do I stand to lose?’ with ‘what might we all need to gain?’
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:28
Openly discussed the projects I work on mattered and where the best work felt like play and the best play felt like work?
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:28
Welcomed all disciplines to create a broader ‘community of aspiration’ and signed an implicit contract to make meaningful work for every project we put our hands to?
Will point to a landing page in September 2016 and we will promote this when we open the UXHK 2017 program at the same time
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:31
Finally
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:31
Its a hard topic
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:31
And it means starting with SELF as @jobot says
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:32
And this requires trust and caring facilitation to do so
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:32
But I am encouraged
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:32
that the new work space
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:32
is upon us
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:32
and we can together
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:32
answer
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:32
how can we make meaningful work
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:32
thank you
hawk
2016-08-03 02:32
Well that was the easiest session I’ve ever run! I didn’t have to do anything! Thanks SO much for your time, your thoughts and your inspiration, Dan. And thanks also to @jobot for joining.
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:32
over to you @hawk
hawk
2016-08-03 02:32
Too quick for ya!
snapperwolf
2016-08-03 02:32
:sparkles:
davidbaird
2016-08-03 02:32
thanks dan
lukcha
2016-08-03 02:32
Thanks so much @dszuc – both empowering and challenging. I’m going to make the time to think about this much more.
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:32
thank you @hawk and to all
davidbaird
2016-08-03 02:33
Great insights
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:33
thank you friends @snapperwolf @lukcha @jobot for joining
kmyers
2016-08-03 02:33
THanks @dszuc – I wasn’t able to take in all the articles you shared, but I’ll definitely go back through the notes and check out those links.
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:33
Sign up and join the make meaningful work discussion groups
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:33
me and @jobot cannot do this alone
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:33
thank you!
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:33
And will follow up with some more reads
dszuc
2016-08-03 02:34
As we finish up
crystal
2016-08-03 02:34
Thank you! @dszuc @jobot and @hawk Very thought provoking and inspiring!
August’s theme for UX Mastery will unpack some of the topics we’ve touched on today about Make Meaningful Work, so keep your eyes peeled! We’d love to hear from you as part of the ongoing conversation.
Formerly a developer in the corporate world, our Community Manager Hawk (who is a Kiwi and is actually only called Sarah by her mother) said goodbye to the code and succumbed to the lure of social science. Community Manager for the SitePoint network for several years and then Head of Community at FeverBee, Hawk is now on the team that builds Discourse.
Jorge Arango joined our community on Slack to take a deep dive into his book "Living in Information". If you missed the session fear not – read more...