Transcript: Ask the UXperts:Finding and Planning Your Ideal Career Path — with Cory Lebson

So @lebson is our special guest UXpert today, for which I’m extremely grateful.
He is the Principal and owner of Lebsontech LLC and author of The UX Careers Handbook https://uxcareershandbook.com/ (which you should all get)

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Cory also speaks frequently on topics related to UX career development, user experience, user research, information architecture, and accessibility. He has been featured on the radio and in addition to his recent book, has published a number of articles in a variety of professional publications.

and then you guys can let loose with your questions

Over to you Cory (and thanks so much for your time)

Thanks, Hawk.

Starting backwards…

The state of UX careers in general is incredible – it’s a great time to be in the field, particularly in major metropolitan areas around the globe.

The book has been an exciting venture for me. It has been available for about two months now and basically covers all aspects of UX careers, from learning and getting started in the field, to finding a job, to summarizing a variety of different career types under this large umbrella that we call UX

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In terms of the session, it’s really an opportunity for all of you to ask whatever questions you’d like and I’m happy to help out with information!

I’ve been in the field for 20+ years myself, mainly as a UX researcher and I’m based in the Washington DC area.

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Usually at this point I’d seed some questions, but I suspect that’s not going to be necessary this time!

So go go go with your questions!

I’m interested in becoming a UX researcher. Is there a good “first step” towards this career?

Hi Corey: Thanks for taking the time to do this.

I’m also in the DC area and one of the issues I’m running into is UX jobs seem to fall into two categories: government contracts that run at a snails pace or agency work where “Agile” is used as an excuse to make people come into the office when Metro is shut down.

Is there such a thing as a UX job that let’s you have work/life balance, still be creative, and lets you eat more than ramen for dinner?

Is spending a several years with the same company as a UX designer perceived as an asset or a hindrance if you go to find another position in UX?

@desertcoder: The two things that I think are particularly important to get started as a user researcher are to first understand the field as a whole at a high level, through formal and informal learning and reading. Then, focus on user research methodology and approaches – again formal and informal learning, but also see if you can find a place to function in an intern capacity.

How do you escape the ‘not enough work experience’ trap? I’m a college grad with no paid professional UX experience, but I do feel confident in my abilities. Unfortunately, everyone is seeking someone with 3-5yrs of experience (which i’m not able to get, since nobody will hire:sob:)

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@lebson: how can we bring the value of UX research into Agile scrum team building enterprise application ? when the team doesn’t have the budget for UX research ?

Did you have in internship when you first started out in ux? Would you recommend that as a first step?

my portfolio does not show well, since my work was constrained by the company’s guidelines for look/feel and development limitations, any suggestions on how to shine light one what I was able to accomplish within the pages?

@anne-dougherty: Here in the DC area there are certainly a ton of government UX jobs and yes, they certainly seem slower sometimes than the commercial UX work. But that said, they do seem to offer a level of stability. They are slow-going sometimes, but there are usually no bad surprises.

30 year IT veteran and over the last 5-8 years have enjoyed PM’ing and Program Managing web efforts that included UX components. So much so, I’ve gone back to get Masters in UxD from Kent State. How to make that transition, or, better stated, how can I utilize my significant experience to transition to the UX field?

@anne-dougherty: In terms of the work/life balance, for me, doing freelance consulting has been the way to go. For the most part, I have work when I want it (though there are times that are too fast or too slow) and I get to make my own schedule. Certainly more risk, but I’ve found personally that it’s more rewarding and gives me more flexbility.

@lebson: Hi Cory, and thanks for your work and your time. I don’t know how familiar you are with the situation in the SF Bay Area, but I’m combining a lot of what?s been discussed a lot in the Designer Hangout Slack (SF Area channel). There’s a ton of frustration among job seekers, along a number of possible axes. First, the state of recruiting is problematic, with unicorn and unclear job listings ? but let’s pass over that. Second, the startup world seems to be primarily “just implement my vision”, saying they want design but devaluing anyone who asks questions, preferring visual designers who just “implement”. Third, there seems to be a null zone between the hoovering up of youngs fresh out of, say, General Assembly and those who have a track record of ship, ship, ship, and profit. Fourth, can you address the hurdle that many of us face: that companies have this idea there is a “perfect fit”, and you as an applicant can never know what puzzle piece they want you to be – or even if that’s a good term, in the long term, for the company. A lot, I know, but feel free to pick and choose. Basically, I know a ton of UX people in the SF area who are finding it increasingly hard to get work – and they’re all great.

@lebson: Thank you. To follow up: do you have any advice for people making a career change into UX for getting a freelance approach started?

this relates also to @thisisdallas ‘s question.

@kmyers: You can go either way – certainly you don’t want to look like a job-hopper, but on the other hand, you don’t want to stay in a job past the point where you can grow and learn. A minimum of a year or two is useful for your resume’s sake. And even more time isn’t a bad thing. But you always have to try to find UX exposure outside of work to normalize your knowledge and not get stuck in the rut of the philosophy of your job away from UX as a field.

@lebson: I am a new UI/UX Design Engineer at a small company that builds apps in a small town. Do you think doing some freelance is possible on the side? And do you think that would be necessary to get the experience I need to move to somewhere like Seattle in about 3 years?

How much experience/learning do you think a person needs to begin doing freelance work? I’m currently working in IT and am working on a 6 month bootcamp. I’m wondering if I should expect to be ready for some freelance work after that.

Hold your questions for a few mins now people – let’s clear some backlog

For people who are just starting out: really recommend going to hackathons, Code for America local groups – jump in on public-good projects, learn from what others are doing, learn what you need to learn, practice.

@thisisdallas: Try to find internships if at all possible. Or consider doing some freelance side work pro bono for the charitable organization of your choice. Orgs may not be ready for you for a hit-the-ground-running position, but they certainly will appreciate a low-cost but valuable resource

Also, if anyone has advice or answers to the questions of others, please feel free to jump in and answer

@anil: You can build “lean UX” into the sprint (or every other sprint) – that gets at the Steve Krug “first friday’s” approach (at least for user research) but building in iterative cycles for design, etc. can certainly be done (and I’ve seen it done successfully)

@kck: Try to show your process in your portfolio. How you arrived at the solutions is often as important as the solution delivered.

Are paid internships a common thing in SF? I’m really pushing to move within the next month or two, but high rent prices are scaring me from focusing my applications towards internships.

@anil: I think that if the team doesn’t have the budget, it’s doing UX as leanly as possible without sacrificing quality but it’s also advocating and raising the salience of UX

@thisisdallas: No. And expect to share a room or have a few $thousand to give up right off to get a place.

@frankenvision: Yes, I had my first “internship” working in an undergraduate psyc research lab. Then, after college, I started in a very junior role, which gave me the opportunity for lots of learning. Whether internship or a junior role (when one exists) – it’s a good way to start.

@lebson How do you feel about all of the ‘Diploma/Certificate’ mills out there?

@thisisdallas: Curious why you think SF is the place to go to, but that’s off-topic…

Hey Cory. I think for me the question is – I’m coming to the end of my UX Design Course so what would you recommend are the next steps towards that first UX role? Majority of job ads state ‘experience needed’ even for junior roles, but trying to get experience is challenging when you really don’t have much to show within a portfolio to attract work experience – People/organisations don’t seem interested. It’s a bit like the chicken and egg example. Thanks

I have 1 year of experience as a ux designer, this was simply me leading a team to create an events app for a local charity (I led a team and we designed a local events app which is now in development) I am due to graduate from university this time next year. What is the best piece of advice you could offer me? I have applied for an internship in my area for the position of ux design intern. If I am called to the interview what should i focus on? The role involves ethnography, co-design sessions and prototyping. I am very comfortable with the prototyping aspect and research aspect. However, how can i improve my knowledge of research techniques? It is a full year paid internship (think of it as spending a year in industry then going back to university to finish my last year)

@anil: I work on a few Agile teams within my company and the way we have found it to work best is to do the prep work ahead of time and have it good to go when presented to the team. In other words, I work ahead and get mockups, prototypes, etc done so they can then be presented to the development team when they are ready to be built. I also have tasks within the Sprints but it works differently for me…I am more a supportive member than a full SCRUM team member

@kck: It’s often the narrative/annotations that goes with the portfolio that is as valuable as the portfolio itself.

@ddt Because Pied Piper (silicon valley) is out there

I find by going to meetup’s, smaller events and workshops exposes you to others in the field of UX. Most opportunities come from a wider circle that may know you’re looking for work. I’ve had a few offers from that and continue to be recommended even with some experience

@kck: You can also add your own items by doing side work or pro bono work for the charitable organization of your choice.

@lebson: Many job openings list a degree as a requirement but I’ve also read that a good portfolio is as if not more important than a degree. IN your experience would a degree help land a UX job or a lack of degree prevent someone from getting a UX job?

There are a lot of great UX meetups in SF, but I’d say 80% of the people you talk to there will ask you if you can get them a job during the course of the evening…

Cory, what’s your experience with recruiters? Any tips on how to approach them?

Well, how do I implement the UX culture in my team and in my company, where I live (Colombia) it’s something rather new, and I think it’s hard for the people to assimilate that we need a UX team to improve our website performance.

Also collaborate with others on side projects is a big plus point and shows off your interest and work ethic

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@crystal: Ideally, before starting freelance work, it’s good to have a little bit of exposure as an employee, but the freelance work can even begin while you’re an employee elsewhere (if you have time and no contractual limitations). By the time you’d go off on your own totally, you need to at least be somewhat expert at some aspects of UX. But you can still continue to learn other things on the job and through other means as you go.

@moralpis: That’s a great question and a general one. I’ve found it useful to treat it as a UX problem: what are the barriers, what do people want as an end result, what language/models do they speak? There are a lot of good talks online about “The ROI of UX”, if they think in those terms. Or maybe they think of it as a huge, disruptive problem, and you can demonstrate how Lean and other techniques are cheap and quick and show metrics they like as returns.

Hello Cory. I’m Khalid and I work in the medical devices industry.

@jacobalonzo: having an actual degree in something related at least tangentially to UX is a good thing. And having other learning is a good thing. Definitely don’t worry about “certification” as there is nothing that is widely accepted in UX. And a “certificate” is neither here nor there – it’s a good thing as it represents a block of learning, but the block of learning itself is what matters most.

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I would like to know how much of my current experience (10+ years) help me transition into this new exciting field of UX/Human Factors??

Thanks. Yeah I’m thinking of doing UX as a freelancer part time if some connections I’ve made in the corporate world I work in currently don’t pan out by early next year. Just so that I can build my skill set.

@thisisdallas: There are certainly lots of jobs in SF and it’s perhaps one of the hottest markets for UX-ers, but it seems to have a crazy-high cost of living and from what I hear, UX professionals are frequently job hopping and less likely to stay in one place (not good for businesses, but could be good or bad as a professional)

Living in the SF area, I have to push back a bit about this “lots of jobs in SF”. But it’s a long story.

Also I am currently enrolled in the coursera course for interaction design taught by Scott Klemmer. Do you think certificate courses like these help land a job? Do you recommend any specific certifications?

@ronnie: Absolutely agree! Those meetups and organizational events are where great networking often happens! And it’s definitely the wider circle of acquaintances that matter often more than the very close associates and friends for getting a new job

Is it best to start out as a ux generalist or specialist?

@ddt: The perception here on the right coast is SF is tech mecca. Nothing but free cereal and fulfilling work.

@frankenvision: from what I’ve observed, most specialists hired where I work end up doing a lot more than they intended, slowly becoming a generalist.

@mwmessina: In terms of recruiters, definitely try to deal with the recruiters that know what they’re talking about when they are referring to UX roles. And be wary of those that are trying to offer you to an employer and can’t understand what the UX job is… they’re not going to be able to advocate for you. Also beware of job descriptions that they show you which ask you to be an expert at everything (those scary unicorn roles)

:unicorn_face:

@ddt: Increase your network through social media sources as well helps. Connecting with those in the community is another plus point. It’s all about exposing yourself in different areas. Take it a step further and treat your job search like a ux project. Speak to recruiters, hirers and some of the places you’d like to work. Get a connection and take them for a coffee, say you want to do an information interview nothing heavy just half an hour of their time. For a price of a coffee and a slice of cake, it’s a no brainer.

@ronnie: Totally agree about collaborating with others on side projects!

@anne-dougherty: I hope to help people not be inevitably disappointed…

@crystal: Absolutely on building your skillset!

@ronnie: Thanks. I help run the Designer Hangout Slack, ran a UX meetup, write for Boxes and Arrows and A List Apart, am active in the community, taught IxD at SFSU? so working on it.

Long term, 5-10 years out, I’d like to be involved in UX Strategy. Would going for an MBA degree in the mean time be worth it or would it be better to get the business knowledge from other sources and get a Master’s in HCI or some other UX related degree?

Hi Cory, would you mind explaining briefly the difference between UX discovery and UX research? Also, a lot of companies want someone who can do discovery/research as well as interaction design plus UI design. Do you think this is realistic?

@wildmansk: Perhaps it’s a matter of branding. Find all those experiences that include UX components and explain in detail what aspects of UX you were involved in, making it clear that you understand the field. There is still likely a learning curve as you transition to practitioner, but with your experience, you hopefully can have an easy path.

FYI everyone – Cory is just jumping through the queued questions and coming back to ones that we’ve missed

@hawk: we haven’t scared him off yet?

@jeremyl: Hi – I have been a UX Team of One (and recommend Leah Buley’s book of that title). It can be done, but a company larger than say – 30?? should be able to bring in more people. To do a weekly iteration in the Lean UX model, that’d be a ton of constant work for one person.

@anne-dougherty: Isn’t he a legend! This is one of the busiest sessions I’ve run (in 6 years of running these things)

Love these sessions

@erin_onxmaps: Doing some freelance work, if you feel that there are some areas that you have a level of expertise in, is certainly possible. In my observation though, it’s often a bit harder to find freelance projects in smaller towns than bigger metropolitan areas.

@jeremyl: I don’t know what you mean specifically by “UX discovery” (our terms are Protean), but you can look at Cindy Alvarez on customer development. Is that sort of what you mean?

@ddt Keep going fella! Look at yourself from a Branding perspective are you answering the questions that a hirer or a company is looking for.

@erin_onxmaps: You can get experience in a small town just as well as in larger city. The catch is just that the supply/demand ratio is perhaps more apt to favor the employer, meaning you may just have more trouble getting an ideal job in that smaller town.

@lebson: Do you do any type of remote freelance work? Is that possible to find on a part-time or small scale basis?

@ronnie: Also, I haaaaaate that so many jobs are “I was at a party and met someone” or “a friend from college asked me”. That just increases the inequality in the design field, relies on homophily, and doesn’t help get a range of experience into the field. It wasn’t that way in journalism (my previous gig)…

@jamespayne_uxd: Agreed on that chicken and egg problem. I’d advocate for volunteering your time to build out your experience, portfolio, resume and brand. Not necessarily for those same companies that wouldn’t hire you, but perhaps on a freelance basis, just to get some work and portfolio pieces. And even with those jobs that are asking for several years of experience, consider offering them that even though you have less experience, you could work for a reduced rate. May work or may not, but you definitely want to keep trying creative approaches.

@uxumar: I’d suggest finishing your degree first, because that’s going to be a valuable credential.

To respond to the question being skipped over. I think (assumption) as I haven’t specifically encountered the term either. That UX discovery could be referencing stakeholder research, project scope, competitor research et al as these are all discovery excercise that provide value exploration and vision to enable proposition and planning against validated visions and proposals. (Sorry on train at present).

yes regarding the job market in SF, they’re all asking for several years of experience umm in my experience lol

@lebson: Thanks, I’m planning for Steve Krug’s – usability testing session and developer observing users task flow.

@lebson What would you point to as the main difference in how to present (okay, _sell_) yourself in an in-person interview versus portfolio, phone screen, cover letter? That seems to be my stumbling point: I answer questions directly (like saying “it’s too early to draw a UI for your design challenge question without research”), rather than in a “how can I sell myself” way.

@uxumar: Even while in school, get books, listen to podcasts, offer to be a note taker for free if you can get enough of an in somewhere – to better get the ins and outs of what is going on in the research front.

@ddt: I hear you! I come from a design background and through outside study my company noticed how I was transitioning into UX. In a way I got that buy-in which is very difficult for many! So in a way I’m showing the value of UX but from the position of being an evangelist and teaching others. It’s helping immensely!

What is your UX process when you take on new projects?

@ddt thanks for your reply. I’ll check out that book. Was thinking discovery was before design starts.. learning about the customers motivations, needs etc.

@jxslepton: A college/university degree is definitely a good thing. However, you don’t necessarily need a UX-oriented degree.

All: really recommend this podcast and this episode: http://www.usersknow.com/podcast/2015/8/13/dont-be-a-ux-designer

@jxslepton: Not having any degree could be a barrier to a job and/or would reduce pay. But not having a UX-oriented degree is not a big deal, particularly if you have some useful experiences.

@erin_onxmaps: thanks, My question was more focused on discovery phase / understanding user problem, defining problem definition or persona , sure prototyping will help.

@jeremyl: That still sounds like research to me? If so, check out Erika Hall?s “Just Enough Research” which hi, everyone should read.

@lebson: thanks Cory, some great advise!

@anil: This can still be done parallel to the Sprints or can be broken down pieces for the Sprints

Agreed. I’d never say that a degree has no value. I was thinking of most of these job opportunities are listing 1. A degree and 2. Several years of experience as a basic requirement.

@lebson: The company is looking for people in their penultimate year of study which I am (Computer science). Do you think this opportunity is really worth going for? Also since im ready doing comp sci is it worth doing a masters in hci after graduating? University here in Scotland is free so I am not in debt. Also, is the USA a better place to study for HCI/Ux degrees?

@kmpak: Depends on how much of your 10+ years of experiences you can manage to slow cleanly/honestly into a UX framework. It’s the story you’ll tell. Don’t know about that particular course, but course-learning (in person and virtual) are good – I’d worry less about whether they just send you off with your knowledge, or give a certificate – what you learn is what’s most important. Certification is not something you should worry about.

@frankenvision: Starting out as a generalist is fine, as long as the expectation is not that you’re an expert in everything. But with it clear that you’re learning as you go, having exposure to different aspects of UX has value. On the other hand, even if you start out as a generalist, you’ll want to pick areas that you can become expert in and focus/grow those areas. If you know before you start what areas you want to become expert in, then it’s certainly fine to start as a specialist, and then just make sure that you maintain exposure to other areas of UX along the way so that you don’t ever feel “out of touch” with the field.

I’m looking to study a master degree but in my country, there is nothing related to UX, what do I do? It’s hard to find quality online degrees.

@ddt that was part of my question to Cory.. if there was a difference. Makes sense that it’s all research. But then research can also mean user testing further down the process, right?Thanks again for the reading suggestions.

@crystal: UX strategy doesn’t require any particular type of degree, rather it’s a solid understanding of UX combined with an understanding of business goals and objectives so you can really come at it from anywhere as long as you’re in a position to see/understand business goals. That said, I do have an MBA and have found it useful as a UX consultant as I’m often involved in strategy discussions. My caution about HCI degrees for strategy specifically is that they may or may not give you a sense of business matters which would be important (not that you can’t get that degree and then get that sense of business matters from elsewhere)

@crystal: Most of the folks I know with HCI degrees are focusing on usability testing and accessibility issues (if that helps any)

@jeremyl: UX research or user research refers to that large bucket of activities that are involved with understanding how users/customers use a product. Discovery usually refers to initial phases of the project and could be considered an initial subset of user research. But discovery may also include things that are not necessarily UX like, for example, market research.

@erin_onxmaps: Most of the freelance work has remote aspects and in-person aspects. I think that it would be hard to be exclusively a remote freelancer, particularly in my area of user research, though there are people who do that – the caution in general is that rate you can charge is, perhaps, inversely proportional to the flexibility that you can offer clients.

@ddt: I think that it’s coming up with a brand, a brand story and an elevator pitch and making sure that it’s absolutely consistent across all phases.

@uxumar: It all depends – if you have the time and interest doing a masters in HCI/UX is certainly good knowledge, but you’re putting off work experience, so it could go either way.

@ddt @lebson it’s why I pay particular attention to Ted talk seminars and how engaging some of the presenters are. It’s about the delivery.

But before we go, thanks SO much for your time today Cory. You were amazing. Is your keyboard on fire?

Thanks Hawk and thanks everyone!

Thanks @lebson!

: big thanks to all and thank you @hawk @lebson

Thanks @lebson! Great advice and insights! (Also shoutout to @ronnie for lots of great info as well) (also @hawk for running things)

Thanks @lebson !

And a reminder to grab Cory’s book: https://uxcareershandbook.com/

Thanks @lebson!

@hawk pinned a message to this channel.

Thanks @lebson and @hawk for an invaluable session! I don’t know how you both kept up!

Have a great morning/afternoon/evening all. Next session on 2 August with Dan Szuc

Thanks @hawk @lebson and everyone else for the insightful info!

Hi! I’m another UX team of 1, in the education sector where we are just getting started toward a UCD-like culture. My concern for now is that I may be at a career ceiling for a long time as I can’t see room for growth for me in the medium or long term. Suggestions or ideas on that :question:

@vernon: Hi. :slightly_smiling_face: You’ve caught us at the end of the session. Hopefully there is someone sticking around that can answer, but if not, feel free to post in our community and we can help you out http://community.uxmastery.com

Thanks @hawk

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