Transcript: Ask the UXperts: How Agile, Lean & Lean Startup Methodologies Affect UX Research — with Amanda Stockwell

Today we had the pleasure of hosting Amanda Stockwell (VP of UX at 352 Inc.) in our Ask the UXperts Slack channel to talk about the differences between Agile, Lean, and Lean Startup, and how to adapt our UX research for those environments.

Today’s topic really struck a chord with the audience, and the excellent questions came in thick and fast. That didn’t stop Amanda though, she handled it like a pro.

If you didn’t make the session because you didn’t know about it, make sure you join our community to get updates of upcoming sessions. If you have follow up questions for Amanda, you can ask them here.

If you’re interested in seeing what we discussed, or you want to revisit your own questions, here is a full transcript of the chat.

 Transcript

hawk

2016-06-28 23:01

So first up – thanks so much Amanda, for your time today, it?s greatly appreciated

hawk

2016-06-28 23:02

Amanda is VP of UX at 352 Inc.

hawk

2016-06-28 23:02

https://www.352inc.com/

earlagray

2016-06-28 23:02

Awesome

hawk

2016-06-28 23:02

She leads a team that provides research, design, and UX strategy services to a variety of clients. She has spent most of the last decade focused on finding innovative ways to understand end users and embed that knowledge into the design process.

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:02

Thanks to all of you for joining!

hawk

2016-06-28 23:02

And recently wrote this great article for us: http://uxmastery.com/how-to-adapt-ux-research-for-an-agile-environment/

hawk

2016-06-28 23:03

@amandastockwell: Throwing it over to you for an intro to the topic of today’s chat :slightly_smiling_face:

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:03

OK great. Hi, everybody! Thanks again for joining.

darryl.grier

2016-06-28 23:03

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amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:03

I want to start by clarifying what Agile, Lean, and Lean Startup are.

taurius1

2016-06-28 23:03

So I’ll put a question out there, since I don’t see too many entered here yet.
My last job was working at a startup who’s product was aimed at enterprise customers, and this product requires extensive domain knowledge, which pretty much narrowed down my usability study participants to people who use our product.
More often than not, reaching out to customers via email usually got ignored, and the ones that did reply, often talked about being afraid to actually talk to me because they had no idea what was covered by their NDA or similar contractual agreements with their employer.

Typically took me a month or two to recruit my users for a usability study.
In such a scenario, would you recommend alternative modes of communication with such users? Or perhaps offer tips about the kind of language to use with them? Or should I try approaching their supervisors, and perhaps have the supervisors recruit my participants for me?

tl;dr: Any tips of recruiting usability study participants for enterprise product users?

hawk

2016-06-28 23:04

Perfect – that will cover off @aleshaarp’s question

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:04

Lean is a general set of business principles focused around eliminating waste and increasing efficiency – but that’s not specific to software

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:05

In fact, it’s derived from the processes around creating Toyotas

aleshaarp

2016-06-28 23:05

right, because there’s lean manufacturing too

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:05

Yep. Lean startup is a specific set of principles/best practices on creating new products, made popular by Eric Ries

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:05

and focuses around iterative experimentation and using the learnings to craft your product and business plans

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2016-06-28 23:07

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amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:07

Agile is specifically a software development approach, and focuses on the core values of rapid, continuous release of live code, collaborative cross-functional teams, and a commitment to responding to changing needs rather than sticking to a plan

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:08

None of these are mutually exclusive – actually, lean-startup practices often work best with Agile teams

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2016-06-28 23:08

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amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:09

and Lean can be used in really any business

hawk

2016-06-28 23:09

Welcome if you’ve just joined – Amanda is currently introducing the topic and clarifying the terminology

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:09

@taurius1 – To the question about recruiting enterprise end-users, I could probably talk an entire hour about recruiting for them

desertcoder

2016-06-28 23:09

@amandastockwell: What method would you use when working with an organization that is essentially Waterfall but calls itself Agile. The challenge for UX is finding and working with enterprise product users who are used to Waterfall methodology.

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:10

I would say a) Yes! Talk to supervisors! Try to get everyone involved and bought in and demonstrate why it’s important to them that they invest some time in feedback

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2016-06-28 23:10

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amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:10

e.g. if their tools are easier to use, they become more efficient, they save money over time

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:11

And be creative about incentives – I’ve made a lot of progress buying beverages and baking goodies :slightly_smiling_face:

aleshaarp

2016-06-28 23:11

interesting question @desertcoder about being Waterfall but thinking they’re Agile. I’ve seen similar hybrids – particularly Agile Scrum but with brutal deadlines!

aleshaarp

2016-06-28 23:12

@amandastockwell: do you find that there are rarely “pure” environments?

donna

2016-06-28 23:12

When we are talking about us research within agile work flows are we limiting the UX methods we can use? We are mostly talking about usability testing? Or are we still able to do other methods?

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:12

@desertcoder: One of the biggest problems is that much like UX, no one really seems to have a shared understanding of what “agile” is and it really does vary from team to team

taurius1

2016-06-28 23:13

thank you for that reply :slightly_smiling_face:

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:13

So one thing I’ve found very helpful is to have an internal discussion to set guiding principles – How does YOUR company define sprints, definitions of done, etc.

hawk

2016-06-28 23:13

I’m queuing your questions for Amanda now everyone. Feel free to ask as things spring to mind.

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:14

in that discussion it usually becomes clear that you either aren’t really actually Agile or you aren’t on the same page

julijaku

2016-06-28 23:14

How involved do you think the UX designer should be in the Development Scrum?

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:14

@aleshaarp: To that note, I’ve never seen a “pure” environment of any variety ha

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:14

And I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Every team and every group needs to find what works for them

aleshaarp

2016-06-28 23:15

So like @donna said, you can pretty much use any UXR method that fits the need as long as it fits the timeline?

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:15

What worked at the startups I’ve worked at didn’t work at the huge enterprise and now doesn’t work at the agency I work at – it all shifts depending on goals, how big the teams are, etc.

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:15

To @donna and @aleshaarp – The actual UX methods don’t change in an Agile environment, but often the timeframe is much shorter, so you have to sometimes be creative

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:16

Either really narrowing down the hypotheses/scope of the work, being flexible about how you run sessions (e.g. could you do remote interviews instead of in person), or finding other time-effective ways to answer questions

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2016-06-28 23:18

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amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:18

@julijaku: I’m not 100% sure what you mean by Development Scrum as that is one of those terms that changes everywhere I go

chels

2016-06-28 23:18

Have you experience in organisations who fundamentally don’t understand UX as a specialised skill set.
In an environment where the methodology is “waterfall-masquerading-as-agile” and roles are traditional BA, PM, Developer, Tester how would you recommend going about challenging and changing this mindset?

anitatran

2016-06-28 23:18

@amandastockwell: can you give some examples of what worked/didn’t work in startups compared with bigger enterprises?

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:18

but in general, I recommend that everything be as collaborative and cross-functional as possible

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julijaku

2016-06-28 23:19

Thank you. In terms of structuring scrums for efficiency, is it good for a scrum to include Engineers, UX, QA, etc, or do you find that more specific scrums are more efficient?

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:19

I’ve always found it helpful to include some of my devs in my research, have devs and designers work together on both front end and back end solutions

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:20

Oh – yes! I’m all about cross-functional! I think the best scrum teams have all those things – engineers, UXers, QA, writers if necessary, etc. all together

eileenca

2016-06-28 23:20

Can you talk about how you fold testing results into Agile?

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:20

Everyone will still have their specialties and what they’re best at, but the more involved each person is in each part, the less convincing you have to do, the less time you have to spend documenting, and the more heads you can have on problems

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:21

And this touches on @eileenca’s question a bit – The best way I’ve been able to get research results incorporated is to have the rest of the team see first hand. There is nothing quite like seeing someone cry because of something you’ve done (or not done!) to inspire work

chels

2016-06-28 23:21

@amandastockwell:
> the less time you have to spend documenting, and the more heads you can have on problems
YES!!!!!

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:22

@chels: To your questions about organizations that don’t believe in UX – yah totally. But more and more companies are realizing they can’t be successful without us

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:23

To challenge the mindset of everyone does their own thing, I am a big advocate of doing first and asking forgiveness later

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:23

I find a few other good souls who are willing to rock the boat with me

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:23

Maybe make them cookies or buy them a beer

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:23

And then prove out how awesome the results are when we do it that way – no one argues with success

donna

2016-06-28 23:24

_the less time you have to spend documenting, _ do you still need to document for knowledge transfer?

taurius1

2016-06-28 23:24

Hmm. I like documenting everything explicitly. All the interactions, user flows, screens, etc. It allows me to design multiple feature at once, and helps other team members (non designers especially) talk about and reference the design in their own conversations.

Lack of documentation usually bites in the future.
“It’s in the code” is not something I like to hear.

aleshaarp

2016-06-28 23:24

Do you find that the “technical debt” threat helps bring people around to UXR?

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:24

So first you have to motivate and inspire a few people to take chances with you, then you demonstrate how awesome it was

hawk

2016-06-28 23:24

On behalf of @ziebell: Are there specific tips or recommendations you’d like to share for honoring the unique aspects of each platform (say Android, iOS) while at the same time maintaining the product branding throughout, and not over designing toward one platform in the face of popularity (say putting Windows Mobile last).

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:25

@anitatran: the question between startups and enterprises often has to do with team structure (ie enterprise teams often tend to be much larger or at least have potential to be so) and more specialized people

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:25

so at a startup you might have one general ux person who does some writing, some design, some research (the unicorn is a topic for a different day!!)

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:26

but at an enterprise you might be able to have a team that has a dedicated technical writer or content strategist, a dedicated researcher, and a dedicated designer

earlagray

2016-06-28 23:26

Hi Amanda. The last major project I was on, I ran into a large issue of the end goals of the product being misaligned (e.g. Marketing’s definition of success differed from Business Developments which differed from IT’s). How important is it that goals are ultimately aligned and what would be the best method to ensuring that each team member is on the same page?

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:27

Recruiting can be different at an enterprise too, whether that’s because there’s a big existing user base or an internal user base. I’ve found you have to be a bit more careful about what to show who based on politics

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:28

@aleshaarp – I’ve had mixed results around the “technical debt” argument. I think brand new companies who are trying to launch something new tend to pay less attention to that

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:28

It’s usually at big enterprises where they’ve been REALLY bitten by debt already that they pay attention to it

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:29

Sometimes it can help, but I think there are other, better, arguments for incorporating UX. Like, making sure you build a thing that people actually want. Saving dev rework time when you do build stuff people don’t want. Getting more new customers or more retention. Etc.

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:30

@donna I think this is a really tricky balance. I don’t like to leave things documented ONLY in the code, but I do like to encourage the teams to “learn together.” For instance, I want a designer and dev to be present in a usability test to capture that awful, tearing up face when somebody can’t figure something out

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:30

so they learn what is wrong and how bad it is at the same time

julijaku

2016-06-28 23:30

Thank you, as a follow up to my last question, how do you suggest a UX person who may be involved in multiple projects at once filter noise and avoid spending all their time in scrums or trying to catch up with different teams?

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:31

But that being said, I also like to write up notes about it – in some of my projects, “documentation” has consistend of just emails to the whole team or google docs of key takeaways

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:31

That way no one forgets anything, people who aren’t there can catch up, etc.

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:32

@earlagray Hi! Ok first of all – it is so super duper incredibly important that everyone shares a vision and definition of success that I say you need to solve that before basically anything else. That’s not exactly a ux-specific issue, but we are often the ones who can bridge the gap

desertcoder

2016-06-28 23:33

I’m finding UX research where I work consists of developing workflows, doing competitive analysis, developing use cases and writing user stories. Is this typical?

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:33

There are some simple kickoff exercises that I really like, as simple as writing shared vision statement for all the key stakeholders. No one leaves the room and starts working on anything until you agree what you’re working toward

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:34

I also like to do group proto-personas to make sure everyone agrees who our target users are

desertcoder

2016-06-28 23:34

Yes! “What’s the problem we’re trying to solve…and for Whom!”

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:34

I think Jeff Gothelf has some good thoughts on kickoff exercises – ask in the forum later and I’ll send you more!

earlagray

2016-06-28 23:35

Thanks @amandastockwell

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:35

sure!

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:35

@julijaku back to you

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amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:35

That’s a tough one – there is always going to be a balance of keeping up vs. being in meetings you don’t need to be

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:36

But I’ve found that it takes less time overall for me to be in key meetings (standups, design reviews, retros) with each team than to try to catch up with what’s going on with each team every time

julijaku

2016-06-28 23:36

Hi Amanda, a question for the queue… do you have any thoughts on HTML rapid prototyping? Do you think it speeds up the development process?

julijaku

2016-06-28 23:37

Thanks Amanda, that is an excellent point

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:37

That being said – it’s REALLY hard to serve many multiple projects well, so if you’re getting to a point where you can’t be effective, I think it’s worth documenting how much time you spend switching contexts and advocating for some more resources

julijaku

2016-06-28 23:38

Also a good point!

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:38

@ziebell had a question about platforms – so I say this is totally dependent on your target users and what they need/use/do

mturner

2016-06-28 23:38

Hi @amandastockwell do you find that it’s best to plan ahead with UX research for an agile methodology? Or be ready to be spontaneous as and when required? Or does it depend? :wink:

aleshaarp

2016-06-28 23:39

Grinning! @mturner is spot on… “both” and “yes, it depends”

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:39

if you are working on a product for a user type that is always exploring new technology, then you have to do that too. If you’re working for a user type that is really loyal to a specific platform, don’t try to change patterns just for brand consistency

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:39

people will likely be more loyal to their platform than to your app or tool or whatever

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:40

@julijaku: on HTML rapid prototyping – I think this totally depends on who is on your team. To be honest, if I was the UX person on the team, it would take me 5 times longer to make a reasonable HTML prototype than some of my colleagues

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:41

In general, I’m all about adapting what works for the people on the team and context of the project

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:41

Sometimes it’s really helpful to have a very high fidelity HTML prototype and you need that to get the kind of feedback you’er looking for

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:41

sometimes it’s overkill

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:42

so sort of to the last point – it depends! I’m very tool-agnostic. If you could use Keynote, or code, or paper, or whatever, I don’t care as long as you got enough of what you needed to done to test your hypotheses

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:42

that most efficient thing is probably different for everyone

julijaku

2016-06-28 23:43

have you heard of UX and front-end developers collaborating such that the HTML prototype can become the actual product frictionlessly?

frankenvision

2016-06-28 23:43

Do team members constantly asking questions amongst one another in an agile environment?

neiljorgs

2016-06-28 23:43

Amanda, do you recommend any UX books that deal specifically with this area?

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:43

@mturner I grinned too! My favorite least favorite response to every UX question is…it depends. I will say this – there are certain things that you can plan ahead that are helpful

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:43

For instance, if you know you’re going to want to run a usability test of some kind, even if you aren’t sure what, it can be helpful to start recruiting users ahead of time

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:44

maybe you don’t even know it will be a usability test – maybe it turns out that you actually need to do interviews

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:44

but having some people scheduled ahead really helps

taurius1

2016-06-28 23:44

Fun thing about UX is that every solution is specific to the context, the user, the business needs, and so many other variables, many of which keep shifting

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:44

So there is a balance of planning and flexibility

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:44

and yes, so much of that. everything always depends

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:45

@julijaku I love it when UX and front-end developers collaborate! I haven’t personally been involved in a time when the HTML prototype seamlessly became the thing

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:45

but I feel certain it could happen

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:45

depending on the context

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2016-06-28 23:46

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amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:46

@frankenvision can you clarify your question? I want to make sure I answer appropriately

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:46

@neiljorgs which area? we’ve covered a lot of topics :slightly_smiling_face:

neiljorgs

2016-06-28 23:48

setting up a lean startup structure to start the process so that your stakeholders are on board.

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:48

ah ok – so not specifically about setting up the lean startup structure, but of course, if you haven’t read lean startup by eric ries, do it! I also love, love, love Tomer Sharon’s “Validating Product Ideas”

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:49

UX for Lean Startups by Laura Klein is great

neiljorgs

2016-06-28 23:49

Great thanks

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:49

next on my queue (ordered but not yet read) is Sprint by Jake Knapp

frankenvision

2016-06-28 23:49

how often do teams regroup in an agile environment? say I am working on user interviews or usability testing are people constantly asking questions during the process? It seems like it could be counter productive…

frankenvision

2016-06-28 23:50

Sprint is a great read.

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:50

Ah ok – you mean like, other cross functional team members actually interrupting the sessions? or just as you’re planning?

frankenvision

2016-06-28 23:50

both

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:51

in general, I’ve found that the more collaborative the planning is, the better. But I generally don’t think it’s a good idea to let others interrupt actual live interviews or test sessions. I set ground rules for observers

hawk

2016-06-28 23:51

We have just under 10 mins left in the session – have we missed anyone’s question?

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:51

As in – you’re here to observe, you can make suggestions to me and I’ll check in 10 minutes before the end to make sure we didn’t miss a question

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:52

Actually, if possible, I don’t let them in the same room so the people don’t feel like they are being stared out

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:52

at*

frankenvision

2016-06-28 23:52

ok thanks

desertcoder

2016-06-28 23:52

@hawk: Yes – question on “typical” UX research in Agile enviro.

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:52

I’ll set up a Hangout or GoToMeeting or something and have team members/stakeholders observe from another room

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:53

@desertcoder: can you be more specific? Like what methods are most typical?

frankenvision

2016-06-28 23:53

do you let the users know that they are being observed remotely?

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desertcoder

2016-06-28 23:53

Yes. It seems more like BA work than actual UX. Just wondering what’s “typical”.

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:54

Usually I’ll say something generic like, “we may have other team members observing the sessions or reviewing after the fact” – Usually if you say there is a big group watching they get uncomfortable and won’t share as much!

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:54

Ah ok so this isn’t specific to Agile, I don’t think, but the lines between UX, BA, Product, etc. are all blurring

donna

2016-06-28 23:55

Sorry @desertcoder what’s BA?

desertcoder

2016-06-28 23:55

@donna: business analyst

donna

2016-06-28 23:55

^^ thanks

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:55

In general, I look at it like this: My team’s job is to understand the business goals, the people who will be using what we make, and what context they are in, and to make stuff that serves their needs. I don’t truly care who on the team does what, but often, my teams won’t have dedicated BAs

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:56

nor product strategists. so the crux of the user research and goal analysis and product planning is covered more by a UXer than a different person

aleshaarp

2016-06-28 23:57

@amandastockwell: do you include in your participant authorization the extent of who may see the session video footage (I record everything so I can focus on the participant and not my note taking, but that may not be your practice.)

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:57

But hey, if there is an engineer that is awesome at analyzing complaint logs, that’s awesome! more time for me to focus on other types of ux-y work

eileenca

2016-06-28 23:57

Any quick suggestions as to how to get good at analyzing workflows?

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:58

@aleshaarp: yep, but generically. Something to the effect of “this will be used for internal teams and note-taking purposes”

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:58

And on occasion we do actually request to use things publicly after the fact!

hawk

2016-06-28 23:58

Ok, after @eileenca’s question we’ll call this a wrap

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:59

@eileenca: do you mean describing a new workflow? Or analyzing a current flow to identify issues?

frankenvision

2016-06-28 23:59

Thanks @amandastockwell and @hawk this was great!

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:59

orrrr something else ha

amandastockwell

2016-06-28 23:59

Sure, thanks for joining!

amandastockwell

2016-06-29 00:00

@eileenca: truthfully there aren’t quick suggestions for either

eileenca

2016-06-29 00:00

I mean describing new

donna

2016-06-29 00:00

I would like to know about analyzing current workflows and identifying issues. if you have time

eileenca

2016-06-29 00:00

Me too, if you have the time

crystal

2016-06-29 00:00

Thank you for this session! I’m new to UX from Engineering background and really enjoy following all the great questions and fantastic answers.

hawk

2016-06-29 00:01

You’re really welcome @crystal – join us at http://community.uxmastery.com/ if you haven’t already

eileenca

2016-06-29 00:02

Thank you Amanda and Hawk!

amandastockwell

2016-06-29 00:02

Sure. So for describing new workflows – there isn’t really a shortcut. You have to do the dirty work of figuring out users’ true problems/painpoints, opportunities to serve those, and creative solutions to get users where they want to be

lukcha

2016-06-29 00:02

You’re welcome, @eileenca!

amandastockwell

2016-06-29 00:02

For analyzing current workflows, my go-to is usability testing. You can do them remotely if you need to be speedy

amandastockwell

2016-06-29 00:02

and we can follow up on that in the forum!

hawk

2016-06-29 00:03

Very welcome @eileenca

hawk

2016-06-29 00:03

Thanks SO much Amanda, you’ve really nailed this

donna

2016-06-29 00:03

Thank you all – enjoyed the session.

amandastockwell

2016-06-29 00:03

Thanks to everyone for the engagement and questions! Please feel free to follow up!

aleshaarp

2016-06-29 00:03

Great session!

hawk

2016-06-29 00:03

and we really appreciate your time and expertise

anitatran

2016-06-29 00:03

Thanks all – very informative :slightly_smiling_face:

hawk

2016-06-29 00:03

thanks all for joining

lukcha

2016-06-29 00:03

This was a brilliant session. Lots of fantastic questions!

amandastockwell

2016-06-29 00:03

Thank you for organizing!

earlagray

2016-06-29 00:03

Thanks a lot!

kmpak

2016-06-29 00:03

has joined #ask-amanda-stockwell

aleshaarp

2016-06-29 00:04

And your ability to answer multiple threads in random succession. Impressive @amandastockwell

neiljorgs

2016-06-29 00:04

Thank you

amandastockwell

2016-06-29 00:04

Thanks to @hawk and @lukcha for helping me stay organized! If you still have questions or want to continue the discussion, head over to the forum thread.